Since I recently lost one of my percula clowns to what seemed to be Brookynella, (http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Topic25892-10-1.aspx), it may be possible that it spread to my Anthias. As people on here have said, if my clown did have Brookynella, then most likely every fish now has it. Today I bought a 20 gallon long, (only 12" tall), all glass aqaurium. My existing 6 gallon quarantine tank wasn't going to suffice if I needed to treat 7 fish at once.

I have some questions.

1) Do I have enough observational evidence with the deaths of two fish to justify removing all of the fish and treating them?

2) If I do decide to proceed, (and by purchasing a new QT tank I kind of already have made the decision), As an expert, what is the procedure/checklist? What steps do I take once I get all of my fish into my quarantine tank?

3) Best way to retrieve the fish? My 6 line wrasse, (my favorite fish), is very very skittish. ANd my remaining Anthia are also skittish, (the remaining female is looking sick now too).

4) If I am unable to get all of the fish out, how can I expedite the deaths of those who won't come out? I want to begin my "running fishless" period as soon as possible.

5) How will I know when my fish in my quarantine tank have a clean bill of health? They all look healthy now, aside from the remaining female looking skinny and lethargic as the previous female did before she passed.

6) Since I don't really know what, (or even if), they are sick, what drug can I give them that will cover all of my bases? I'd hate to go through this process and cure them of Brookynella and return them to the display tank only to find out they also had some other ailment.

7) Will the biological filter in my display tank, (200 lbs of live rock with bacteria), die if there are no fish to provide food for the bacteria?

Essentially, I do not want to go through this unless I am sure it will fix everything and I know exactly what to do.

Thanks again,
Josh

Sorry for your losses.

At this point, I think it is more than coincidence that you are losing fish.  There is something going on in your tank.

Removing all the fish for at least 4 - 6 weeks is what I would do if it was my tank.  Obviously the number of pathogens is growing/multiplying. 

You can add food to the tank or target feed the corals you have to keep the tank cycled.  Water changes while the tank is fallow (fishless) should continue on schedule.  This will also help decrease numbers of pathogens.

What fish are left ?  Six line wrasse & anthias & ??  Are you going to use both the 6 & the 20 gallon for QT or just the 20 gallon?  Do you have cycled biological media or sponge for the QT ?

Though no definitive diagnosis was made (skin scrapings, etc) - brooklynella was strongly suspected.  I would place all of the fish in QT and perform daily formalin baths 45 minutes to 1 hour (make sure the bath water is well aerated!!) for 3 - 5 days.  I do not think hyposalinity would help as there are no white spots which are indicative of ich.  I would not add any chemical or herbal treatment or antibiotics to the tank as there is no indication at the present that we are dealing with ich, fungus or bacterial infection.  I would however lower the salinity to 1.018 the help with oxygenation especially if the parasites have infected the fishes' gills.

Monitor water parameters daily - you would be amazed at how fast water conditions can/will deteriorate in a day.  Frequent water changes will be necessary to keep parameters stable and decrease stress on the fish.

I would keep all the fish in QT at least 4 weeks after completion of treatment or after last symptom subsides.

Make sure you have a lid on the QT tank to keep the fish in the "shallower" tank.  Stressed or sick fish will behave differently - believe me, I have learned from experience on that one.  Also supply plenty of hiding places for them - pvc couplings/pipe pieces as well as those gaudy freshwater decorations/plants/caves work really well and can be cleansed/sterilized after use and use again.  I would not add a light to the tank initially - ambient room lighting for feeding/observation will be sufficient.  Decreasing stress is one of the keys in treatment.

I would feed the fish beta glucan daily for the first two weeks in QT.  I would add vitamins and garlic to their food daily while they are in QT.

As far as catching the fish, here is a good thread by Anthony Calfo:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=707656 

Again, sorry for your losses.  Please keep us updated.

Best of luck.

My livestock is

- 1 Sailfin Tang 2"

- 1 six line wrasse 1.5"

- 1 male resplendent anthias 1.5"

- 1 female resplendent anthias (deteriorating) 1.5"

- 1 Perc clown 1"

- (2) pajama cardinals

So 7 fish, all fairly small.

And then the inverts. 10 snails, 1 cleaner shrimp, 4 hermits and 2 stars.

And then the corals, 2 types of xenia, 2 open brains, 1 monti cap, 1 green acro, 3 leathers which are growing like weeds, 2 gorgonias, 1 candie cane, 1 torch, 1 hammer.

I was planning on puuting them all in the 20 gallon, (all 7 fish). I will be receiving a fish in the mail from ORA fish farms either late this week or next week. I ordered it a long time ago. I will put this "clean" fish in my 6 gallon. i don't want to mix it with the fish I'm treating. unless you think I should justn throw em all together and treat the ORA clown also. But he is supposed to be clean I'm told.

Where can I get beta glucan?

ALso, can I just move them from the 1.026 reef water to the 1.018 water? Or do I need to hassle with lowering the salinity slowly day by day?

And what if after all of this I still have fish die in my tank?

Is there ever a way to really determine what the pathogen(s) are?

Thanks for your help.

Josh

Do not mix the ORA "clean" clown with the "exposed to a pathogen" fish.  With the seven fish in the 20 - watch for aggression & provide lots of hiding spots.  You may consider a tank divider (many LFS have them).

Leave the inverts and corals in the tank without fish for 4 - 6 weeks.

To confirm a diagnosis - skin/gill scrapings can be done.  Necropsy on newly deceased fish can help as well.  Once a fish has been frozen, accurate diagnosis may be difficult.

Beta Glucan can be found at many vitamin stores.  I get mine at Wild Oats & Whole Foods.  The brands I use are Solaray and Solgar.  They come in caplets (crush & use powder) or capsules (open & sprinkle).

I would lower the salinity over a couple hours to decrease stress.

If a fish dies while in QT being treated, continue treatment with the remaining fish. The stronger fish or those with a good immune system should be able to beat the parasite.  Leaving the tank fishless for 4- 6 weeks will rid the tank of parasites - ich, velvet, brooklynella.  The parasites have to have a fish host in order to complete its life cycle.

Keep us updated.

Best of luck.

Baths in a separate container are the way to go.  Being that you have 7 fish to catch/bath  - perhaps you can bath them in a bucket before placing in tank. I do not like adding medications/treatments to the QT as they can affect the nitrifying bacteria. Subsequent baths should be easier as you can collect the fish with some of the tank water (part of your water change process as well) and add it to clean saltwater for the bath.  Aerate well.

Best of luck. 

One last semi-dumb question.

What kind of container do I use for the bath? What kind of container is good for holding 7 fish for the bathing periods? Won't it piss them all off to be sitting next to each other while being medicated? And what do I do for filtration in this "bathing container"? My formalin says to bath for 50 minutes. 7 fish in a bowl for 50 minutes would create some pretty nasty water.

I suppose I can't quite visualize yet how this is all going to play out. I really don't want to screw this up. I already lost one Anthia mid-formalin bath. Although she was pretty dead when I put her in the bath. I guess I thought it would bring her back. She was breathing, but not swimming.

You should come to my house and show me what to do. I live in southern CA.

Thanks

Josh

Southern California is pretty.  Only problem is the water is too cold for me to dive

I suggested all 7 in a container to save you a lot of time - 50 minutes per fish.....  You could divide them up & put a couple in a container and watch for aggression/stress.  I use 5, 10 & 20 gallon glass aquariums as well as salt buckets for formalin dip.  I use a minimum of 2 airstones & a powerhead (with a sponge so no one gets sucked in) for aeration.  I do not put any filtration on the bath.  If a fish is becoming too stressed during the bath, they get put back in the QT.

Hope this helps.

By the way, no question is dumb when it comes to the life of a fish or animal.

So since I'm going to be putting all my fish into quarantine, in addition to Formalin should I also treat them with dewormnig meds? Or maybe just the clown?

I'm in the process of setting up the new QT tank. it's got salt water in it now at 1.022 sg. I figure this is between the current value in their current home and the target 1.018. This will be less of a shock then moving them directly from 026 to 018. Once they are comfy in QT I will lover it to 018 over a few days. The heater and airpump should arrive tomorrow. The "FIsh Corral" should arrive today. I've heard from other hobbyists that it is great for catching fish. I'll need to get some airstones and I think I'll use your suggestion of using an empty clean salt crystals bucket for the treatments. I have a pretty large empty instant ocean bucket that will serve this purpose. How does a tank divider work? You said I can get a tank divider at the LFS? My QT tank is glass, will the divider need to be glass? Do I glue it in? How does it work?

Thanks again so very very much
Josh